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Post by sweeper on Mar 29, 2012 14:15:09 GMT 10
The Church played a major role, there is no doubt.
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Post by aek210 on Mar 29, 2012 17:14:38 GMT 10
I think that the Church - for better or worse is central to Greek identity (for most Greeks anyway). Don't get me wrong - I see plenty wrong with the Church but I am a firm believer in Realpolitik.
And in times of adversity, Greeks need a strong church to identify with because it has been such an integral part of the culture.
Forget even times of adversity, you need a moral code. Look in Australia, where morality has weakened over the decades. Australia was never really a religious nation, but it had a sense of ethics based on a moral code (Christianity). With that breakdown, has been a break down in community and family.
Offocurse there are other factors at play, but morality, which for Greeks is represented by the Church is central.
The Church had relative Freedom under the Ottomans (to varying degrees), however Orthodoxy was recognised. This allowed Greeks to preserve their identity.
We are one of the only continuously surviving ancient cultures today. Most others have disappeared and can be proud of that.
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Post by sweeper on Mar 29, 2012 18:29:38 GMT 10
The Ottomans were afraid of our religion and our beliefs.
They were hesitant in what they did in regards to our religion.
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Post by mini on Mar 29, 2012 18:43:29 GMT 10
The ottomans respected all religions!!! They weren't afraid of orthodoxy. The ottomans controlled orthodox and catholic Christians, Jews, animists, shamans, Druze, zoroastrians, and all lived fine. Stop with the vlakies
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Post by sweeper on Mar 29, 2012 20:40:24 GMT 10
I find it hard to believe that these religions "lived fine" under Turkish rule.
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Post by mini on Mar 29, 2012 20:44:30 GMT 10
Your the one who said ottomans were scared of Orthodoxy.
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Post by sweeper on Mar 29, 2012 20:55:41 GMT 10
They were. But they wouldn't have made life easy for the other religions.
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Post by anothermp on Mar 29, 2012 20:58:59 GMT 10
Ottomans were scared of being the minority in their own empire. Same problem Alexander the Great had thousands of years ago, and earlier Muslim caliphates as well. The Ottoman solution to this was the blood tax, taking the firstborn nonMuslim son, convert them and train them to an elite army separate to the military answering to Sultan directly. On the one hand acts as a counter against a military coup, on the other cripples the nonMuslim communities within the empire
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Post by sweeper on Mar 29, 2012 21:00:21 GMT 10
They may have shown tolerance for all the religions under Ottoman rule but in reality they would have been very abusive. If not, why were most of the Christians removed or kicked out ? In some cases very violently eg. Armenians and Greeks in the later years.
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Post by theoharis on Mar 29, 2012 21:19:07 GMT 10
@aek I agree.
Remember Mini the devsirme tax and janniseries were in place, and children were taken from their homes, brainwashed and raised as Turks and became the most skilled warriors of their military. It was actually only until the devsirme tax stopped that the Ottomans fell. Taxes were incredibly high for Christians too. Look at Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia and how they fell to Islam for example. The Turks were by no means 100% tolerant, and the different Sultans and Pashas (lords of particular regions) each had their own laws and beliefs on how to treat Christians; some much more tolerant than others.
The Church kept the Greek sense of identity and culture, created nationalism and supported the 'Filiki Eteria'. They also connected the countrymen and regions together. The argument is however that because the priests were the educated, that they wrote the history books from a very bias perspective.
Myself I can understand the argument and believe it to a very limited degree, however I think that the Orthodox Church truly did carry the Greeks for those 400 years and are essentially why there is a Greek nation today.
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Post by mini on Mar 29, 2012 22:27:47 GMT 10
They may have shown tolerance for all the religions under Ottoman rule but in reality they would have been very abusive. If not, why were most of the Christians removed or kicked out ? In some cases very violently eg. Armenians and Greeks in the later years. Difference between ottomans and young Turks ---- Theo Harris, read up how the church tried to discourage the revolution. Free masons freed Greece, not the church |
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Post by sydcro57 on Mar 30, 2012 6:32:42 GMT 10
They may have shown tolerance for all the religions under Ottoman rule but in reality they would have been very abusive. If not, why were most of the Christians removed or kicked out ? In some cases very violently eg. Armenians and Greeks in the later years. So your argument on relegious tolerance in the Ottoman empire is based on events that occured in the early 1900s? What about the hundreds of previous years? It's pretty common knowledge that there was a high level of religious tolerance under the empire... especially in comparison to others A lot of historians seem to think that the Greek Orthodox church had it VERY good under Ottoman rule... too good to bother caring about the average Greek in the empire |
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Post by paoktzi on Mar 30, 2012 7:06:32 GMT 10
The greek orthodox church has been greece problem for years!
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Post by mini on Mar 30, 2012 7:18:45 GMT 10
They may have shown tolerance for all the religions under Ottoman rule but in reality they would have been very abusive. If not, why were most of the Christians removed or kicked out ? In some cases very violently eg. Armenians and Greeks in the later years. So your argument on relegious tolerance in the Ottoman empire is based on events that occured in the early 1900s? What about the hundreds of previous years? It's pretty common knowledge that there was a high level of religious tolerance under the empire... especially in comparison to others A lot of historians seem to think that the Greek Orthodox church had it VERY good under Ottoman rule... too good to bother caring about the average Greek in the empire The atrocities of the early 1900s was not committed by the Ottoman Empire, they were committed by the 'Young Turks,' which Ataturks revolutionary party. Your point about the orthodox church having it good under the ottomans is 100% true, as well as your point about religious tolerance. You know what the issue is? We are taught from a young age in church, scripture lessons at school and Greek language school that the church had preserved Greek culture for the entirety of ottoman occupation, and that kids were going to Greek and religious school at night where the ottomans couldn't find them which is all a load of BS |
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Post by sydcro57 on Mar 30, 2012 7:31:45 GMT 10
I know who committed them... but it was technically still under the empire
Hence my point about pointing at a few years out of hundreds
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